NSBASIC OR PPL

[Marc Van Cauwenbergh]

Hello,

I am going to buy a programming laguage but I do not know what to choose. Ofcourse there are not a lot of them but even then the choise is difficult. Could you tell me the difference between NSBASIC and PPL?

Regards
Marc

[kornalius]

Of course we will tell you PPL here in these forums ;)</p>

I won't be comparing the two since I am the main developer, I'll let the users do this. On top of head here are some adantages of using PPL:</p><ul> PPL is fast. PPL is cheap, starting at only $39.95. 100% cross-platform between PC and PocketPC. Ideal for game programming. Develop from your PocketPC. VGA screen support. NSBasic has a better ActiveX integration for the moment. Easy to integrate modules in PPL. (.dll files) Profile your code from the PIDE to pinpoint which areas of your program are slower. Memory foot-print is small. Compile to .exe. Visual debugger. 100% cross-platform PPL Assembler to obtain pure assembly code speed. I am sure there are more...[/list]

[iamacooldude]

There are a few good ways to develop on the Pocket PC. The two you mentioned are usually the most popular of choices. Here is how I compare them:

NSBasic/CE:

Has Device and Desktop IDE
*Compiles to EXE but only on Desktop
*ADOCE support
*Active X Controls
*A very VB6 feel

I would say that this was a good product that is not keeping up with the times. It is overpriced compared to competition and does the same as other products. Good, but could be better.

Basic4PPC

Has Device and Desktop IDE
*Compiles to EXE but only on Desktop
*Database support
*DLL(Active X?)
*Also has a VB6 feel

This is one I would suggest over NSBasic if you wanted to go that route. It is much cheaper($29 instead of $149), is being updated alot, and has most of the features that NSBasic does.

PPL

Has desktop and Device IDE
*Compiles to EXE on both device and Desktop(each respectively)
*Basic/C/Pascal feel
*Active X/DLL
*has a GameAPI support
*Full source code to IDE(not PIDE)
*(see more listed by the man himself)

PPL is a real deal. Despite the price being not too far off from NSBasic(to do some of the same stuff. aka Pro), PPL pack more punch than NSBasic. I think PPL is great in the ability to program on the PPC and Desktop. It just came out of beta and into release, so expect even more later. PPL is not geared towards BASIC as much as Basic4ppc or NSBasic, so it is a little more difficult to conquer.(unless you have a C++ background or something)

Dialect

Has both Device and Desktop IDE
*compiles to EXE on both Desktop and Device
*ADO support(database)
*DLL(not Active X, yet)
*will have Game API soon(being put in by me, slowly :p maybe even 3D!)
*Source code to all things(open source apache-style licence)
*BASIC/Python feel

Dialect has some really cool stuff, but it has been laying low for awhile(until I picked it up :D ) There is even more potential in Dialect because it is open source, but Dialect will never have all the stuff PPL has either(like assembly coding and SDK). Also, Dialect is the only one so far without a on device Visual Designer.(soon to be fixed by me)The price is great, though! :p

Forward Pass

Device IDE only(with visual designer). Can edit scripts on Desktop, though
*Desktop EXE creation only(creates PPC EXE, not Desktop EXE)
*Basic/Javascript
*Free
*Active X/Databases

Forward Pass was previously commercial before the company gave up. It is now freeware. FP has a nice price along with language choices. Is not developed anymore and there is no source.

Conclusion
This is not a complete list. I have not talked about everything possible about the above software, nor have I talked about all possibilities. You can even find ports of python, lisp, and C++ for PPC!(already on PC ;) ) These lists should help you discern which is right for what you want. My choice would be(not counting prices) PPL or Dialect. These both have bright futures and are very expandable. I hope this helped!

[kornalius]

Wow nice comprehensive list. Thanks for the time you've put into this.

First I hear about Dialect, looks pretty cool.

[iamacooldude]

It will be cool if I can help it. Here is a very early build of me implementing the gapi through pocketfrog/pockethal.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-514841719464774980&amp;q=dialect

[Marc Van Cauwenbergh]

Thanks for the input.
Question: HanDbase (database for PPC) has an ODBC driver that is capable of syncing with access, oracle etc. Can PPL use this driver?

Reagards,
Marc

[kornalius]

I am pretty sure it can be done via ADO. I am not an expert at these things but PPL does support ADO, so I am pretty confident it will.

If not will find a way to make it work in a future release.

[Marc Van Cauwenbergh]

Thanks again,

Let me try to explain what I want to do:
I want 'field agents' to gather information in a PPC. Then I want it to be very, very easy to update a central database on a desktop PC. By easy I mean putting the device in a docking station or even the Bluetooth way the desktop database should be updated. No manual exporting or importing.

Feasible?

Marc
almost convinced.

[kornalius]

This won't be an easy job with any language I believe.

You need to transfer the file from the PPC to the PC, then updating the table shouldn't be a problem.

No manual work will be hard to achieve. In this case you will probably need some kind of client/server applications running through TCP/IP or something like that. A PPC client program that connects to the PC server and then transfers the data table.

Again I am not really advanced in this field maybe someone here can help us both.

[Solonn]

I'm actually looking to build a sort of tcp/ip server/client for my application. It will create a file on the server side, then the client will download that file. This is the idea, I'm waiting for the new release of the WinSock.ppl library, since the file reading wasn't working on beta 0.9. Hope this helps.

[kornalius]

The WinSock API is fully functionnal now.

[zehlein]

@ iamacooldude: impressive list! do you have the url for Dialect at hand?

[iamacooldude]

@zehlein: yes, the main page(stable) is http://dialect.sourceforge.net The SVN for my VERY unstable testing of adding the GAPI is(temporaily) at: code.google.com/p/dialectfrog I think, unless you want to help me develop it, you should stay with the official stable.

[mmtbb]

Iamacooldude,

In your summary you are missing a HUGE advantage of PPL over NSBasic OR the others...
Object-Oriented Programming!!!
I am surprised it hasn't been mentioned.

PPL fully supports Structs, and Objects with a lot of bells and whistles (Constructors, Destructors, inheritance, etc.)!

[kornalius]

Thanks mmtbb, I forgot to mention it too! :) PPL has so many features that I can't list all of them without looking like I'm a car salesman everytime!

[PointOfLight]

From a business perspective, I think the biggest things you would look for are database support and GUI design. Here are my thoughts on those two subjects:

PPL
Integrated SQLite support; SQLite works on both PC and PocketPC, and programming with it is identical in both environments*ADO support through ActiveX; more difficult to use than NSBasic/CE, and by the nature of ADO is different between PC and PocketPC*GUI design; more flexible than NSBasic on the PC (in my opinion), and code is compatible between PC and PPC in terms of developing a PPC app (and possibly PC as well)*Updating between PC and PPC; can use Winsock header to move files back and forth if using SQLite; when using Pocket Access, you would have to let the ActiveSync conduit or at the very least a call to RAPI to have the file converted between Pocket Access (.CDB) and Access (.MDB)


NSBasic
SQLite support through NewObjects ActiveX control; since the SQLite DLL is compiled into this control, any time there is an update the control has to be recompiled accordingly; fairly easy to use, however*ADOCE support; easier to use than PPL*GUI design; not as easy to align and manipulate controls as PPL; once you start working on a visual form on the PPC IDE, you can't go back to the PC IDE; if you want to develop a program for both PC and PPC, you need both NSBasic/CE and NSBasic/Desktop (or some other PC based development environment)*Updating between PC and PPC; NSBasic has Winsock support through Microsoft's ActiveX control (I believe) - should function roughly the same as PPL; With NSBasic's recent update to use DLLs, RAPI calls might be possible, though I don't know if there are any pointers involved, which NSBasic does not support; Same restrictions apply in terms of using Access


Basically what I'm saying is that from a database perspective I think the two are quite comparable, but in my opinion PPL handles GUI development much better.

As far as the other languages are concerned:

Basic4PPC - I have not worked extensively with this, though the little I have I was not real impressed with GUI development. Also, I believe the database support is new to this latest release, so I will check that out when I get a chance.

Dialect - like Kornalius, i had not heard of that before now. I will check it out as well.

Forward Pass - since it is no longer developed or supported, I highly discourage this product for business development. I've head it's good, but how useful is it when it's not supported?

Now, if you intend on building highly graphical programs (not necessarily games) that don't require much standard Windows interface, I definitely suggest PPL over NSBasic/CE or basic4ppc. NSBasic/CE has an enhanced picturebox control, but it doesn't have a lot of the high speed functionality required for graphics applications, and I'm not even sure what Basic4ppc does, while PPL has PocketHAL integrated into it. I will be curious to see Dialect's implementation of PocketHAL.

To the Dialect developer: what are you going to use for 3D, because I was under the impression that PocketHAL / Frog did not support 3D?

[iamacooldude]

Thank you for all your intrest in Dialect. I hope you all remember, though, that I am the only one trying to add pocketfrog/pockethal etc. in right now, so progress is a little slow.(I can only do it in my spare time between school.) Main development is still handled by A.H. Banen and George Harth. For information on my progress, I have a personal website/blog at eyecreate.googlepages.com There, many questions should be answered.(like what I will use for 3d and current status. See google video link above for a video of previous version.) Dialect, also, has OO programming, btw, and it is a BIG reason why I used it. See dialect.sf.net for more info, or check it out for yourself at [http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/dialect/DialectWin32Install-1.16.exe?download] for windows version.(not my version which is not very usable to most people right now.)
A cool way to use Dialect's OO is to create properties on the fly. That was how I could make the GUI designer I am making for it. Keep up the good work on PPL too! I expect it will be a tool most developers of PPC software will want(or beg for) by beginning of 2008!

[kornalius]

Hopefully by 2007 and not 2008! ;)

Ok lets stop the Dialect propaganda! :)